Does Daniel 9 Reveal the Start Date of Daniel 8:14?

To access this article as a PDF file, click here: Daniel 9 and Daniel 8:14

Introduction

The question of “How long?” has been asked or contemplated as far back as Eve in the garden when she supposed that her firstborn son was the promised Seed. Just as the prophets in the Old Testament, and John the Baptist, Peter, James, and Paul in the New Testament, it is human nature for us to apply Biblical prophecy to our time as we question when our Messiah is coming to take us out of this sin-filled world and deliver on the many promises to which we cling.[1]

In this quest, certain 19th century Christians, who became known as Millerites (named after their leader William Miller), in a diligent effort to understand the prophecies in the book of Daniel, came to significant conclusions that formed the basis of their understanding of where they were in prophetic history. They understood, by historic records, that the decree to rebuild Jerusalem given by Artaxerxes in 457 BC began the “seventy sevens” of Daniel 9. They concluded that this was also the start date for the 2300 evening morning prophecy of Daniel 8:14. They also concluded that “evening morning” was a single 24-hour period so that this meant 2300 days. They further came to believe that in symbolic Bible prophecy a day equaled one year, leading them to the conclusion that Yeshua was returning to earth October 22, 1844, a date that was settled on after a few earlier dates came and went without the Second Coming occurring. They eventually revised their explanation of what happened October 22, 1844 to Yeshua moving from the holy to the Most Holy compartment in the heavenly sanctuary, to begin the pre-advent judgment.

This paper will be limited to looking at the first conclusion, that Daniel 9 gave the start date for Daniel 8:14, although the other conclusions should be revisited as they also have challenges.

To those who question our efforts to expose the problems we see with these various conclusions, we simply remind them: truth does not suffer from close investigation. We encourage everyone who has held to October 22, 1844 to be willing to fully and fearlessly examine their beliefs. If it is truth, it will become all the more evident with close scrutiny. If it does not hold up to such scrutiny, then it is best to discover that now so truth can be pursued rather than wait to be put under the microscope to give an answer for their faith and discover that they cannot. We ask that you pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you into all truth as you read this. If you believe that it is our conclusions which are in error, we ask that you come and reason together with us, to show us from the Bible our error(s). We assure you, we have spent many years searching out these matters.

In Daniel 9, Daniel begins with an earnest prayer to understand the prophecy of Jeremiah, regarding seventy years of captivity, which was nearing completion. The context of Daniel’s prayer is clear, that Daniel was asking for God to deliver His people from the Babylonian exile.[2] The answer that was given to his prayer to understand Jeremiah’s seventy years went further than Daniel was asking, as Gabriel revealed a 490-year period (“seventy sevens”) that would culminate with the First Coming of Yeshua.

Daniel 9 addressed the first coming of the Messiah. Daniel was given three Second Coming prophecies in revelation of events that foretold the final few years before the Messiah’s triumphant return. To lump all the prophecies in the book of Daniel together as end-time prophecies is not warranted by the context and substance they contain. But it seems that the distinction between the first and second comings in prophecy has been missed at least in part not just by the Millerites, but it was missed by all of the Old Testament prophets, the Pharisees in the time of Yeshua, and disciples and New Testament writers (with the exception of John the Revelator when he was given additional insight not given earlier). They did not see 2000 years between the first and second comings, and another 1000 years until the end of the millennium. They all expected that the kingdom promises would happen at the first arrival of the Messiah.

In their study of the meaning of Daniel 8:14, the Millerites made several conclusions that caused them to mix Daniel 9 with Daniel 8:14. This study will attempt to refute these conclusions, sincere though they may have been, with the desire and intent that we continue to look to the prophecies that were given for the end times, recognizing that they foretell still future events rather than past events. No disrespect is intended upon the sincere Bible students who formed these conclusions. This study is for current day Christians who are still relying on these conclusions who we hope to move forward in their understanding of prophecy.[3]

Points that will be considered to answer the question if Daniel 9 begins the count for Daniel 8:14 in this paper are:

  1. Timing of the visions
  2. The meaning of “are determined” in Daniel 9:24
  3. Gabriel’s appearances in Daniel and elsewhere in prophecy
  4. To which comings of the Messiah Daniel chapters 7 – 12 belong
  5. To whom the “matter” was given
  6. The Hebrew words translated as “vision” in Daniel 7 – 9

1. Timing of Daniel 7 – 12

As part of this study, it is important to keep in mind the timing of the various visions along with their subject matter. Historians apply the following estimates to the years to each prophecy:

  • Daniel 7: 545 BC (with seven years of captivity remaining)
  • Daniel 8: 543 BC (with five years of captivity remaining)
  • Daniel 9: 538 BC (the end of Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy, the year of the first decree of Cyrus when some returned to Jerusalem to begin building the temple)
  • Daniel 10-12: 536 BC (two years after some had left captivity)
  • Decree from Artaxerxes: 457 BC (approximately 80 years after Cyrus’ decree)

Those who hold to the idea that Daniel 9 is interpreting Daniel 8 and the timing for the Second Coming are denying not only the first coming timing revealed in chapter 9, but also its correlation of timing to 1) Daniel’s prayer for understanding Jeremiah’s vision, 2) the conclusion of Jeremiah’s prophecy of seventy years, and 3) the release of captives to return to Jerusalem.

2. Seventy sevens “are determined”

One reason that the Millerites associated Daniel 9 with Daniel 8:14 is the use of the Hebrew word translated “are determined” in Daniel 9:24:

[4]Dan 9:24  Seventy H7657 weeks H7620 are determined H2852 upon H5921 thy people H5971 and upon H5921 thy holy H6944 city, H5892 to finish H3607 the transgression, H6588 and to make an end H2856 of sins, H2403 and to make reconciliation H3722 for iniquity, H5771 and to bring in H935 everlasting H5769 righteousness, H6664 and to seal up H2856 the vision H2377 and prophecy, H5030 and to anoint H4886 the most Holy. H6944 H6944

H2852    חָתַךְ    châthak   A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: – determine.  Total KJV occurrences: 1

Any time a word occurs only once in Hebrew, it is much more difficult for native English speakers to fully grasp or for translators to avoid an unclear translation. There are no other Hebrew words in the lexicon that have the same three letter root, also making it difficult to fully understand the word used. A round-about way of searching for the word in other Scripture is to see how H2852 got translated into the ABP+ and then searching that Greek word elsewhere in the ABP. In this method, the word for H2852 is G4932. It appears five times in the Old Testament, with four (including Daniel 9:24) being translated “rendered concise” and the fifth, just two verses later in Daniel 9:26 is translated “being terminated”.

In reaching out to the Makor Hebrew Foundation for more information on this word, Nelson Calvillo, Manuscript Researcher, had the following to say:

Usually when this happens, we can look at another type of word with the same root, but it’s not just this verb, but this entire root is the only one! This makes it extremely difficult to translate a word like this; basically an educated guess. When this happens, the other recourse is to look at either other related languages, like Aramaic, or in a different time period; such as the Hebrew of the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Hebrew of the Mishna. As it turned out, this word is in fact used much more often in the Mishnaic period.

He then went on to attach photos from the Jastrow Dictionary, which used “to be cut off, severed”, and “to be decided, decreed” to show how the word was used in the Mishna.

The Millerites took the meaning of “cut off”. [They could just have easily chosen “decreed” (also shown in Strongs) “being terminated” (as shown in ABP), or “decided” (as shown in the Jastrow), none of which leads to being linked to any other time period. They could have read this as: Seventy sevens were “decreed”, seventy sevens were “terminated”, seventy sevens were “decided”.] They asked the question, “Cut off from where?” They concluded it was from the 2300 evening mornings of Daniel 8:14, even though there is no contextual (or linguistic, as discussed above) justification to do so. They interpreted 2300 “evening morning” sacrifices as 24-hour days, which meant to them 2300 years, so they assigned the same start date to each of the two time periods, believing that the 490 years were “cut off” from the 2300 years.

The question begs to be asked: did this conclusion fit the context? What does Daniel 9 indicate was cut off (or decreed, or determined, using other Strongs meanings)? Israel was given a very specific amount of time to accomplish a very specific set of goals – putting a complete end to sin and walking in the Torah in its fullness. They were given 490 years, which included 490 annual Days of Atonement to set aside sin, seventy shemiṭṭâh H8059 (release) cycles (the seventy “sevens”), and ten Jubilee cycles to rehearse a complete reset. They were told plainly that the Messiah would be arriving on the scene at the end of those days. But did they put away sin? Did they accept the Messiah? When He came to purify them, did they repent and return? No, they did not. Instead, they murdered Him.

Daniel 9 “cut off” (decreed) a specific time period for Israel to become purified. When they failed, what was “cut off” was Israel’s period of probation, so to speak. Yeshua wept over them (Luke 19:41) and “cut off”, ”decreed”, ”terminated” from that point onward that their house was left desolate (Matthew 23:38). What happened in 70 AD was evidence that they were cut off, as foretold in Luke 19:44, “because they knewest not the time of thy visitation” (G1984, meaning inspection) in fulfillment of Malachi 3:1-3. The time decreed had expired, and they were caught unprepared. As a result, while Yehovah’s eternal plan did not change, His chosen leaders, by their free will failings, did.

None of this, however, was related to the 2300 evening morning vision, which is stated is for the time of the end and tells second coming events. Instead, it is directly for the time of the first coming.

3. Gabriel’s appearances in “the first” vision

Gabriel’s presence is another supposed link of Daniel 8 and 9. Because Gabriel is only mentioned by name by Daniel in these two chapters, it is asserted that the vision “at the beginning [H8462]” of Daniel 9:21 can only be a reference to Daniel 8’s vision and thus the Daniel 9 interpretation can apply only to Daniel 8. However, this assertion ignores that Daniel 8:1 also references a vision “at the first [H8462]”, which clearly had to be something other than the vision that follows in the rest of Daniel 8 itself. Daniel 7 was interpreted by a being who Daniel did not name, but who he later identifies in Daniel 9:21 as having been Gabriel by the pointer word H8462.

Daniel 7:15-16 “I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions (H2376) of my head troubled me. I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.” (No name was given of the interpreter.)

Daniel 8:1 “In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision (H2377) appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first (H8462). (i.e.: prior to 8:1, which would refer to the first vision found in chapter 7).

Daniel 8:16 “And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision (H4758)”.

Daniel 9:21 “Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision (H2377) at the beginning (H8462), being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.”

Notice that the H4758 vision that Gabriel was interpreting in Daniel 8:16 was the vision of Daniel 8, yet the H2377 vision of Daniel 9:21 is claimed to be Daniel 8 as well. This is evidence that the two words are synonymous, a point that will be looked at in detail later in this article.

But back to the point of the beginning: Daniel 8:1 references an H8462 beginning vision. That leaves only chapter 7 as the vision that was first/beginning. Therefore, the theory that in Daniel 9 Gabriel must be interpreting Daniel 8 (a vision Gabriel had already interpreted five years prior) because Gabriel is mentioned by name only in those two chapters is faulty reasoning. On one hand, to make the 8 to 9 connection, Daniel 7 must be excluded as “the beginning (H8462)” mentioned in chapter 9. But on the other hand, Daniel 8:1’s use of “the first (H8462)” vision can logically only refer to Daniel 7, as it would not make sense that he is apply that term to the vision in this same chapter that he has not yet shared. In other words, in light of Daniel 8:1, Daniel 7 has to be the H8462, but in the other instance (for Daniel 9 to point to Daniel 8) Daniel 7 cannot be the H8462. It is more reasonable to conclude that the being who interpreted Daniel 7 was also Gabriel, although he is not named. Daniel says as much in 9:21 when he states “the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning.”

The appearance of Gabriel is a red herring. In chapter 9, Gabriel is simply giving an interpretation of Daniel’s petition in chapter 9. The idea that Gabriel appearing in chapter 9 is to finish a five-year-old job of interpreting chapter 8 overlooks the context of every time that Gabriel is mentioned in Scripture: the prophet of Messiah’s coming. Daniel 8:16, Daniel 9:21; Luke 1:19 (regarding the pregnancy that would birth John the Baptist) and Luke 1:21 (regarding Mary’s pregnancy of Yeshua) all mention Gabriel. In Daniel 8 Gabriel interprets a prophecy relating to the end times and the Second Coming of Yeshua, in the other three Gabriel is prophesying events regarding the First Coming of Yeshua. Because Daniel 7 is also foretelling end time events leading up to the Second Coming, it appears that Gabriel is the angel who Yehovah uses to deliver messages related to both comings of the Messiah. Thus, it is logical to conclude that it was Gabriel in Daniel 7 as well as in Daniel 8 and 9. Therefore, to make a conclusion linking chapter 8 and 9 based on whether or not Gabriel was named needs to be reconsidered.

4. To which comings of the Messiah do Daniel chapters 7 – 12 belong

Daniel defines the vision in chapter 8 as being for the end of time in verses 17, 19, and 26. He identifies the related vision in chapters 10-12 as being for the end of time in Daniel 10:1, twice in verse 10:14, and also in 12:4, 9, and 13. At least nine different times these two visions are specified as being for the end of time.

While Daniel 7 never specifies such end times terms, the subject matter ties into Daniel 8, as well as with Yeshua being given eternal dominion over his everlasting kingdom (Daniel 7:13-14). As such, it is not necessary to have been specified as end times because the context makes that obvious. This means that all three of the visions that Daniel personally had were end times visions.

Similar to chapter 7, nowhere is Daniel 9 identified as for the end times. Does that mean it is proper to place it as the starting point of the time of the end? When you compare and contrast Daniel 9 with Daniel’s three visions, bear in mind the following, which is a quote from the introduction to Daniel 9 in our book The Wise Shall Understand, Daniel and Revelation:

There are many features that differentiate Daniel 9 from the rest of Daniel. The timing of the seventy-week prophecy related to events leading up to the first coming of the Messiah, while Daniel’s other prophecies all relate to events leading up to the second coming of the Messiah. Daniel 7, 8, and 10-12 all have common themes or events that tie them together (such as the four winds; four beasts, four horns, or four kingdoms; and the little horn), none of which are found in Daniel 9. Another important difference is that Daniel chapters 7, 8, and 10-12 were visions that came to Daniel, but Daniel chapter 9 is based on visions that came to Jeremiah. Yet another difference is that Daniel 7 and 8 uses symbolism (beasts, horns), while Daniel 9 is literal (rebuilding of Jerusalem, coming of Messiah).

Additionally, Daniel 8:17 and 8:19, Daniel 10:14, and Daniel 12:1-2, 4, 13 plainly declare that those prophecies are for the time of the end. Nowhere is there a declaration made that the seventy-week prophecy of Daniel 9 is for the time of the end. This was not an oversight. Instead, this is because it did not relate to the time of the end of the world, but rather to the time of the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its temple, and the first coming of the Messiah.

In reality, Gabriel’s Daniel 9 interpretation is not for the time of the end, but rather for the time period beginning in 457 BC leading to the First Coming.

5. Consider “the Matter”

Another conclusion of the Millerites was that the use in Daniel 9:23 of “the matter (H1697)” points to Daniel 8. This connection falls short because that word never appears anywhere in Daniel 8. Not even once. It does appear 204 times in Jeremiah, as well as in Daniel 9:2 and 9:23. As such, the “matter” that Daniel was praying about from Jeremiah and the “matter” that Gabriel came to make known to Daniel point directly to Jeremiah, as does everything else about Daniel chapter 9.

An important consideration when interpreting the visions and prophecies of Daniel is the source of the prophecy. Daniel had three visions (chapter 7, chapter 8, chapters 10-12). Daniel 9 was not a vision of Daniel, but rather the answer to Daniel’s prayer on the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy. Thus, considering Daniel 9 to be an explanation of Daniel 8 is overlooking the fact that they are completely different visions given to two different prophets. They were also given for a different time period (first vs. second coming), as discussed above.

  • The vision in Daniel 7 states “Daniel H1841 had H2370 a dream H2493 and visions H2376 of his head H7217 upon H5922 his bed: H4903”.
  • The vision in Daniel 8 states “a vision H2377 appeared H7200 unto H413 me, even unto me H589 Daniel, H1840”.
  • The vision in Daniel 10-12 “a thing H1697 was revealed H1540 unto Daniel, H1840”

Additionally, all three visions repeatedly have Daniel making statements such as “I beheld”, “I saw”, “I lifted my eyes”, “he (Gabriel) said unto me”, etc. However, Daniel 9 does not follow this pattern. Instead, it was not a vision given to Daniel, but rather Daniel praying earnestly to understand a prophecy of Jeremiah’s (Jeremiah 25:11-12, 29:10), as shown in Daniel 9:2:

Dan 9:2  In the first H259 year H8141 of his reign H4427 I H589 Daniel H1840 understood H995 by books H5612 the number H4557 of the years, H8141 whereof H834 the word H1697 of the LORD H3068 came H1961 to H413 Jeremiah H3414 the prophet, H5030 that he would accomplish H4390 seventy H7657 years H8141 in the desolations H2723 of Jerusalem. H3389

When Gabriel comes with the interpretation, he goes beyond the 70 years with his revelation, but it is important to realize that the “seventy sevens” were not related to a vision that Daniel had, but rather an interpretation building on the seventy years of Jeremiah. As such, claiming that Gabriel’s interpretation of Jeremiah’s prophecy was meant to explain the start date of an isolated line out of a vision given to Daniel does not fit. The explanation given by Gabriel is the amount of time that would transpire until the Messiah came the first time.

6. The Hebrew words translated as “vision” in Daniel 7 – 9

In an effort to link the start date for the prophecy of the “seventy sevens” in Daniel chapter 9 to the start date of the “2300 evenings and mornings” of Daniel 8:14 and 26, much is made of the different words translated “vision” in these verses. It is almost approached as though the use of one Hebrew word over another was a secret code to point to a specific prophecy, or portion thereof. Let’s investigate this idea.

Daniel 9 states that Gabriel came to show Daniel the “vision” using Hebrew H4758.

KJV+: Dan 9:23  At the beginning H8462 of thy supplications H8469 the commandment H1697 came forth, H3318 and I H589 am come H935 to shew H5046 thee; for H3588 thou H859 art greatly beloved: H2530 therefore understand H995 the matter, H1697 and consider H995 the vision. H4758 

Though not used in Daniel 8:14, H4758 (mar’eh) was understood as being a waypoint to the 2300 “evening morning” due to Daniel 8:26.

Dan 8:14  And he said H559 unto H413 me, Unto H5704 two thousand H505 and three H7969 hundred H3967 days; H6153 H1242 then shall the sanctuary H6944 be cleansed. H6663 

Dan 8:26  And the vision H4758 of the evening H6153 and the morning H1242 which H834 was told H559 is true: H571 wherefore shut thou up H859 H5640 the vision; H2377 for H3588 it shall be for many H7227 days. H3117

What we need to investigate is this: Does the use of H4758 in these two verses mean that Gabriel was interpreting Daniel 8:14 by what he said in Daniel 9? Or does H4758 have a broader application such that we cannot conclusively link his chapter 9 interpretation to a time period in the Daniel 8 prophecy based on the presence of this word?

Daniel 7 was not written in Hebrew, but rather in ancient Chaldean. It uses only the word H2376 “chezev” for “vision”. This is essentially the same word as the Hebrew word H2377 “châzôn”, translated “vision” in chapters that were written in Hebrew rather than Chaldean. We mention this to note that in Chaldean, there seems to be no distinction of separate types of visions as a single word is used. Daniel 8 and 9 were written in Hebrew, and both chapters use both H2377 “châzôn” and H4758 “mar’eh” for “vision”. Daniel 9 uses H2377 twice and only uses H4758 once.

The question we must answer is: are these two Hebrew words significantly different and used so distinctively as to serve as a guide for matching one line of the vision in Daniel 8 to Gabriel’s starting point for Jeremiah’s prophecy explained in Daniel 9:24-27?

Here are the words for “vision” in Daniel 7 – 9, along with their Strongs’ Concordance description:

“Vision” in Daniel 7:1, 2, 7, 13, 15, 20[5]:   H2376    חֵזֶו    chêzev  (Chaldee); from H2370; a sight: – look, vision. Total KJV occurrences: 12

“Vision” Daniel 8:1, 2, 13, 15, 17, 26, 9:21, 24:  H2377  חָזוֹן châzôn  From H2372; a sight (mentally), that is, a dream, revelation, or oracle: – vision.  Total KJV occurrences: 35

“Vision” in Daniel[6] 8:16, 26, 27; 9:23:  H4758   מַרְאֶה   mar’eh  From H7200; a view (the act of seeing); also an appearance (the thing seen), whether (real) a shape (especially if handsome, comeliness; often plural the looks), or (mental) a vision: –  X apparently, appearance (-reth), X as soon as beautiful (-ly), countenance, fair, favoured, form, goodly, to look (up) on (to), look [-eth], pattern, to see, seem, sight, visage, vision. Total KJV occurrences: 104

“Saw” or “seen” in Daniel 8:1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 15, 20: H7200 (from which mar’eh derives). H4758 is comprised of the prefix “mem” in front the three-letter root word H7200. The letter “mem” is commonly used as a Hebrew prefix meaning “from”, “of”, or “out of”.  While this study will not break this word down further, some of our readers may find it an interesting starting point for a deeper study of these words. Another interesting point of study would be how other writers of the Old Testament used all of these words in their writings.

The many uses of the two words H4758 and H2377, not only by Daniel, but also by other writers of the Old Testament, seem to indicate that the two words are used similarly, perhaps even interchangeably, with mar’eh used roughly three times as often as châzôn. It is important to note that two verses (Daniel 8:15 and 26) use both H2377 and H4758 in the same verse, with verse 15 translating it as “vision” and “appearance”, and verse 26 translating both as “vision”.

Also, note especially the back-and-forth ping pong effect in Daniel chapter 8, verses 13 – 17: Verse 13 is châzôn, 14 (as shown in verse 26) is mar’eh, 15 is châzôn (referencing the dream) and mar’eh (referencing Gabriel’s appearance), 16 is mar’eh, and 17 is châzôn. This indicates that there is no significant difference between using what could easily be synonyms (H2377 and H4758) to refer to a vision, unless you want to suggest that each alternative verse is to be spliced into separate visions.

The conclusion that both Hebrew words can be used interchangeably also fits how the Hebrew/Greek scholars who translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek (the Septuagint) treated the two Hebrew words with a single Greek root word. They used the Greek root word (G3700) to translate both “châzôn” and “mar’eh”. They do this (use words from the root G3700, including G3701, G3705, and G3706) in every single instance of Daniel chapter 8 and 9, even though the Hebrew moves between the two very phonetically different words of H4758 and H2377.  This is evidence that the seventy linguistic scholars chosen to create the Greek translation did not see any significant difference between the two words. See three passages from both the Hebrew King James Version with Strongs Numbers (KJV+) and the Apostolic Bible Polygot (ABP+), which is the Old Testament translated into Greek.

Daniel 8:15 (uses both H2377 and H4758, with G3706 used to translate both)

KJV+: Dan 8:15  And it came to pass, H1961 when I, even I H589 Daniel, H1840 had seen H7200 (H853) the vision, H2377 and sought H1245 for the meaning, H998 then, behold, H2009 there stood H5975 before H5048 me as the appearance H4758 of a man. H1397

ABP+: Dan 8:15  And G2532 it came to pass G1096 in G1722 G3588 my beholding, G1492 G1473 I G1473 Daniel, G* the G3588 vision, G3706 and G2532 I sought G2212 understanding. G4907 And G2532 behold, G2400 there stood G2476 before G1799 me G1473 as G5613 an appearance G3706 of a man. G435

Daniel 8:26 (uses both H2377 and H4758, with G3706 used to translate both)

KJV+: Dan 8:26  And the vision H4758 of the evening H6153 and the morning H1242 which H834 was told H559 is true: H571 wherefore shut thou up H859 H5640 the vision; H2377 for H3588 it shall be for many H7227 days. H3117

ABP+: Dan 8:26  And G2532 the G3588 vision G3706 of the G3588 evening G2073 and G2532 of the G3588 morning G4405 of the thing G3588 being spoken —G2046 it is true. G227 G1510.2.3 And G2532 you G1473 set a seal upon G4972 the G3588 vision, G3706 for it is G3754 for G1519 many days! G2250 G4183

Daniel 9:23 (the verse that supposedly points to Daniel 8:26, 14, with G3701 used to translate H4758)

KVJ+ Dan 9:23  At the beginning H8462 of thy supplications H8469 the commandment H1697 came forth, H3318 and I H589 am come H935 to shew H5046 thee; for H3588 thou H859 art greatly beloved: H2530 therefore understand H995 the matter, H1697 and consider H995 the vision. H4758 

ABP+: Dan_9:23  In G1722 the beginning G746 G3588 of your supplication G1162 G1473 [3went forth G1831 1the G3588 2word],G3056 and G2532 I G1473 came G2064 G3588 to announce G312 to you; G1473 for G3754 [2a man G435 3desired G1939 1you are].G1510.2.2 G1473 And now G2532 reflect G1770.1 in G1722 the G3588 matter, G4487 and G2532 perceive G4920 in G1722 the G3588 apparition! G3701

[How to read the ABP: When a series of words are in brackets with red numbers preceding them, this is a method to help English readers put the words in the order that the English language employs. For example, in Daniel 9:23, you will see brackets twice. Each set of brackets has the Hebrew order of the words with the red numbers being a guide to read this in English. In this verse “3went forth 1the 2word” would read in English as “1the 2word 3went forth”. In the second bracketed phrase “2a man 3desired 1you are” would read “1you are 2a man 3desired”.]

If indeed the use of H4758 in Daniel 9:23 was meant to be a pointer to the 2300 evening/morning of Daniel 8:14, 26 that very important fact was completely missed by seventy of the most reputable Hebrew scholars of their day when translating into Greek, as well as the many scholars of modern English Bibles who have translated the different words into the single English word “vision”. An objective look at the various words translated into English as “vision” are simply an indication that interchangeable synonyms were employed, something we commonly do in our speech and writing.

Another problem with the idea that Daniel 9:23 points to Daniel 8:14, but the rest of Daniel 8 is separate and fulfilled long before the time of the end, is that you would have to bifurcate Daniel 8 by lifting the 2300 evening morning vision out of it and insist that it is separate and distinct from the rest of the vision, despite Daniel specifying that he saw “a” (singular) vision in both verses 1 and 2. To separate out verse 14 as though it is not part of the whole is a construct, especially coupled with the previously mentioned back-and-forth in five consecutive verses of Daniel 8:13-17.

It is also important to note that, if indeed H2377 and H4758 are not synonyms and instead are a specific differentiation of aspects of the Daniel 8 vision based on verse 26, there is another problem. In 8:17 it says at the “time of end shall be the vision (H2377)”, but there is no corresponding verse anywhere that says that the time of the end shall be the H4758 vision. This would have to mean that only the H2377 segment (making the leap that there are two segments of Daniel 8) refers to the time of the end, and the H4758 portion would be excluded from being the time of the end. Yet the same Bible students who interpret that the H4758 use in Daniel 9 pointed to the H4758 use in Daniel 8:26 do give it an end time interpretation. They claim that on the 2300th day/year would be the time of the end, specifically the Second Coming. The event that supposedly occurred on October 22, 1844 was later revised, when it didn’t happen, that He had instead changed locations in the heavenly temple and began the pre-advent judgment in preparation for a soon coming. This is in conflict with Daniel 7, which clearly shows the judgment happening during the time the little horn is speaking, and which takes away his dominion. According to the historical application of Daniel 8, it has the judgment beginning in 1844, but the little horn being destroyed nearly fifty years prior to the judgment, in 1798. This is just one of many reasons why the traditional 1844 understanding does not work.

There seems to be no basis for determining that the different Hebrew words for “vision” is a code linking the 2300 evening/morning time period of Daniel 8:14 to Gabriel’s interpretation of Daniel’s petition for understanding of Jeremiah’s prophecy in Daniel 9.

Conclusion

We find it interesting that the three visions of Daniel, which are all unquestionably end time events, are considered by many Christians to be mostly fulfilled, while the Daniel 9 interpretation of Jeremiah’s prophecy, which is unquestionably pointing to the First Coming of Yeshua, is considered by most Christians to have its final week yet to be fulfilled in end times. This is something that the enemy has successfully flipped on its head. The end time prophecies are disregarded as all past, while the prophecy that related to over 2000 years ago is considered by many yet future. There is a better understanding awaiting those who are willing to challenge what they have been taught from earlier attempts to understand sealed prophecies, prophecies which are being unsealed as the day approaches.

In this article, we have addressed and answered numerous problems with using Daniel 9 as a start date for Daniel 8. We have shown that to believe that the Daniel 9 interpretation is the start date for the 2300 evening morning segment of the prophecy of Daniel 8, you must accept every one of the following conclusions, none of which can be substantiated by God’s word:

  1. A first coming interpretation applies to a second coming vision: The interpretation given by Gabriel was pointing to the first coming of the Messiah, yet it is applied to a time period that was originally believed to be the timing for the second coming of the Messiah (then revised to Yeshua changing locations in the heavenly temple).
  2. Gabriel’s presence is evidence that the two prophecies are linked: Both chapters refer to an earlier vision, which by default would be chapter 7. Because Gabriel is named in 8 and 9 does not mean the two visions are exclusively linked. Don’t forget the obvious: Daniel 9 can be, and is, an interpretation of Daniel’s petition in chapter 9, just as in Daniel 8 Gabriel was interpreting Daniel’s vision in chapter 8.
  3. Gabriel interpreted a currently ending date of a prophecy of Jeremiah by explaining a single line lifted out of a five-year-old end time vision of Daniel: Although Daniel 9 clearly references Jeremiah’s seventy-year prophecy (which was now meeting its time fulfillment) as the context of his prayer, you have to believe that the interpretation Yehovah sent through Gabriel does not apply to Jeremiah’s vision at all, but rather applies to a single line lifted from Daniel’s previous approximately 5-year-old vision that was sealed until the time of the end, which was not being prayed about, and which is completely different subject matter that totally eclipses the context of chapter 9 itself.
  4. The “matter” (H1697) in Daniel 9:23 refers to Daniel 8, which never uses the word H1697, but it is not related to Jeremiah, which uses that word over 200 times. Even a casual reading of Daniel 9:2 makes it plain that the “matter” is the word given to Jeremiah, not the word given to Daniel. To say that it refers not to Jeremiah, and instead to a chapter of Daniel where H1697 never appears, is yet another construct, with no evidence to back it up.
  5. The use of what appears to be interchangeable Hebrew synonyms for “visions” is actually code: You have to believe that Daniel 9:23 “consider the vision (H4758)” can refer only to Daniel 8:14. This is despite the fact that the chapter 8 vision also uses H2377 six times, including the verses immediately before and immediately after Daniel 8:14. This is also despite the fact that Hebrew translators chose a single Greek root word in place of the two very different Hebrew words in every single instance.
  6. The use of both H4758 and H2377 in Daniel 8:26 would by extension have to mean that the single vision given in Daniel 8 is split into two different visions. There is no indication that there are two separate visions, or that only part of the overall Daniel 8 vision was shut up with one single verse excluded from the shutting up to instead apply right away. It is clear in Daniel 8 that it is one chronological order of events, starting with the ram and he goat war, and finishing at Yeshua’s reward: His Kingdom for eternity. You cannot cut out one verse and apply its timing independently of the rest.
  7. The time of the end applies to the H4758 vision even though Daniel 8:17 says at the “time of end shall be the vision (H2377)”. Despite it being specified that H2377 is the time of the end, you must believe the interpretation that the H4758 vision of the 2300 evening morning is for the end time. You must also believe the rest of Daniel 8 vision H2377 that is specified for the end was fulfilled before the end. In other words, you are flipping the two from what is stated.

Because none of these conclusions can rationally be accepted, when in fact every single one would have to be true, the idea that the Daniel 9 interpretation applies to Daniel 8 will not stand up under close investigation, nor has it in the past. There is not a single evangelical church, even early offshoots of the Millerites, who have accepted this doctrine because it cannot be proven in Scripture.  The ability of the church to share uncommon truths that it does hold is limited severely by holding on to this doctrine. If you have been holding to this idea, it is time to “prophecy again”. We encourage you to study Daniel’s end time prophecies for what they are.

There is overwhelming Biblical evidence to demonstrate that the historical understanding of this prophecy is, at best, an application, and not a fulfillment. It is our desire to come to a correct understanding of these visions. If you believe after reading this study that we are putting forth error, we would be happy to look at what you believe to be a better explanation for all seven of these points. We only ask that you answer all seven points, based on Scripture alone. If you are unable to do so, we urge you to be willing to consider that what you have been told is not correct.

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart.  {RH, December 20, 1892 par. 1}

It is time for the church to come to grips with the fact that this teaching is not in line with Scripture, and to move forward. We would love nothing more than for the Seventh-day Adventist church to embrace truth. Being willing to admit errors from our past is a sign of maturity. Embracing this truth is mandatary to continue the church’s mission of taking the full gospel to the ends of the earth. If what we have laid out in this study is true, according to the words of Yeshua, this will come to light, and we believe the sooner it does, the better.

John 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

Footnotes:

[1] To see many examples of this, see our video presentation titled Prophecy vs. Prophet’s Understanding, Part 1:  https://rumble.com/v2zq1m0-prophecy-vs.-prophets-understanding-part-1.html

[2] See our video presentation titled Daniel 9, His Prayer: https://rumble.com/v2uwbye-daniel-9-his-prayer.html

[3] While the Millerites pre-dated the Seventh-day Adventist church, SDAs arose out of the Millerite movement and hold to the conclusions related to October 22, 1844 to this day.

[4]   Unless specified otherwise, all Scripture quotations come from the King James Version, and all words which are numbered are with Strongs Concordance numbers.

[5] Daniel 7, in Chaldean, uses a single word for vision, but the concept of synonyms is repeatedly shown. In chapter 7 (KJV) Daniel refers to the vision as a “dream and visions” in verse 1, a “vision by night” in verse 2, “night visions” in verse 7, “visions of my head” in verse 15, etc. There is no basis for determining that chapter 7 is detailing four or more separate visions because the terminology varied a bit from verse to verse.

[6] Daniel 8:15 includes H4758, translated “appearance” (of Gabriel) instead of “vision” in the King James Version. Because it is not translated as “vision”, and is not specific to the vision of Daniel, verse 15 was not listed in this segment.

# # #

Tom and Judy Stapleton

Posted July 24, 2023